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8/22/17 12:06 PM 

Over 10,000 Posts!!! (21,771)
Chicago, IL

It seems the quacker is at it again. This time he and the "prophet" are battling it out. The quacker has gone on the attack of Ancient Greek manuscripts he knows nothing about. Specifically the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus. Of course, they have both failed to mention that there are 2 different copies of the Codex Vaticanus.

Quote from prophetic774:
Of course the Charismatics disagree with this. They even believe that Mark 16:17,18 is a part of God's Word although almost all Bible scholars agree these words were not found in the earliest inspired manuscripts!!

This is a false statement and easily thwarted by looking up Mark 16:17-18 in the Ancient Greek text.

Ah. There it is, safe and sound. Mark 16:17-18. It shows up in both the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus.

Quote from brashdoc:

This doesn't really tell me if these manuscripts have the verses in question or not. But as I have already proven, the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus absolutely do.

Quote from brashdoc:
Simply because these manuscripts are older does not mean it is more reliable or accurate when compared with the other 5745 Greek manuscripts we presently have for comparison or the over 11,000 lectionaries & over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic & Aramaic languages. (https://carm.org/manuscript-evidence), let alone the quotes of Scripture from the early church fathers that from these the whole Bible could be put together. You will see quotes below from the bible scholars who actually handled, collated, carefully studied, gave introductions to & translated these ancient documents.

Actually, this is unfair and untrue.

Just because there are more of the Modern manuscripts doesn't mean they are right. One such Bible scholar who has "actually handled, collated, carefully studied, gave introductions to & translated these ancient documents" is A. E. Knoch.

Quote from brashdoc:
Yet there are manuscripts OLDER than these & they INCLUDE Mark 16:9-20. And the Alexandrinus codex INCLUDES Mark 16:9-20 & the Vaticanus has a blank space after Mark 16:8 that this section would include.

I have already proven that the Codex Vaticanus does include Mark 16:9-20, contrary to what is being said at the "Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1" thread.

The oldest and most complete manuscripts are:

Codex Vaticanus (a & b)
Codex Alexandrinus
Codex Sinaiticus

These are the oldest and most complete Manuscripts we have today.

What has been termed as "error" in these manuscripts is based on what the Modern manuscripts have to say. In any other subject, the older version would have been venerated as more accurate. These copies were around a long time (usually about 1000 years) before the Modern version came through.

It is only the church history and traditions that keep the truth from being heard.

Who do we follow? The church? Traditions? Or Jesus Christ?

Quote from brashdoc:
"Strongs Greek Concordance & Greek Lexicon of NT indicates that (“gates”) in antiquity was also used to indicate authority and power. Further, while the word may simply refer to the large entrance gate to a city or fortress, it also typically refers to the exit the people go out of. And in this sense, word focuses on “what proceeds out of something.” And thus we see some of the subtleties of the word pules.


G4439 pule poo'-lay
apparently a primary word;

a gate, i.e. the leaf or wing of a folding entrance (literally or figuratively).

This is what Strong's says about the word 'pule' or "gate." I have very little interest in what this "Greek Lexicon of NT" has added to Strong's Concordance. These later works are mostly based on the Modern Greek manuscripts and historical documents outside of the Scriptures. Though this stuff might be interesting at times, it tends to take us off the track of what we are doing.

Simply put, this means the entrance to death. This happens every time someone dies. Your great, great grandfather has entered the gates of death. Unless he is sitting in your living room having tea or back at the old folks home.

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8/22/17 12:06 PM 

Over 10,000 Posts!!! (21,771)
Chicago, IL


Quote from brashdoc:
I listed post after post of multitudes of Hebrew & Greek scholars & commentators that fully agreed there is a hell, it is a legitimate English translation & saying it is not fictitious or saying it doesn't exist. To believe it doesn't exist is definitely dangerous for one's spiritual well being. It is a legitimate English translation of sheol, hades, tartarus & Gehenna, when clarified.

There is no "hell" in the Scriptures. I have said this over and over and I have proven it many times. This guy is trying to make it seem that "scholars & commentators" all agree that there is a "hell." He is wrong. I actually know some scholars who do not see a "hell" in the Scriptures. The Orthodox Jews have no "hell." Many Jewish denominations, or movements, do not include a "hell." Not as we use the term.

Those who insist on using this term will never have a clear and comprehensive understanding of what the Scriptures actually does say.

Not all Scholars agree and not all scholars believe there is a "hell" in the Bible.

Quote from brashdoc:
"The original Greek of the verse has Jesus speaking of Hades & that Greek word is believed to be a translation of the Hebrew concept of (Sheol), which like Hades was "the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated" (Jewish Encyclopedia). Now the OT indeed does say that Sheol has gates, e.g. in Job 17:16 (NKJV quoted): "Will they go down to the gates of Sheol?"

Can this quack prove that 'sheol' and 'hades' are the same words? I don't think so. I can.

The Jewish encyclopedia tells us...


There is nothing in there that says anything about a "hell." And, after all, it is Hebrew, the language of the Jews.


H7585 sh'owl sheh-ole'
or shol {sheh-ole'};

from H7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates.

Again, nothing here about punishment or "hell." No fire. No eternal damnation.

There is no "hell" in the Scriptures. Only to those who have imagined it there to justify their own beliefs.

Perhaps only those who are a bit sadistic and perverted will promote such a grotesque and evil man-made destination.

There is so much wrong with the statements from "Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1" thread that there is not enough room on the server to put it all.

I hope I have covered the highlights at least.

One last note. Nowhere in the Bible is God's truth described as a game of "dot-to-dots." This is a trick to try to connect unrelated Bible verses.

The word "death" ('thanatos') 9 times out of 10 means literal physical death. Not "spiritual" death. Although this concept is in the Bible, it is not used as wide-spread as some here would make it seem.

CLV 1C 15:54 Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory.

This verse, for example, means that when we put on immortality, physical death will no longer have a hold on us. At present, it does. That is unless you have found a way to stay your own death.